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I was going to say the same.:
Rates and water usage are not the same thing. And if you haven't received a bill in the time since you arrived, it would be considered your responsibility to follow it up, just as if you didn't receive an electricity bill.
Every time I have moved into a new rental property I have called the water authority along with elec, gas, and phone when moving in. It's a utility you should pay for it.
BUT you may be able to organise a payment plan.
I don't think your landlord is being dodgy at all. You didn't know the law and he probably didn't either. He probably thought you should be paying water so passed the bill on to the RE agent.
You may be asked to sign a new lease now ;)
So as it was not in you're lease agreement with you're landlord, you are responsible for the water usage, not the landlord.
i would be ringing up you're water supplier and ask them about the bill for the property. and who'se name it is under.
speak to the Prorperty manager, and ask if the bill is actually from the water supplier or the landlord? and ask for a copy of the bill/s in question.
In QLD I never paid for water, didn't even know some people had to! Since moving to Melbourne I've had to pay (BOOO!!) so using my awesome powers of deduction I'm thinking the rules might be a bit different state to state. Although it looks like QLD is starting to figure out the whole paying for water thing.
We have never paid for water either and we are on the Gold Coast. We recently signed a lease and the bit where we agree to pay for water was crossed out..
ive been renting in qld for 10yrs and have never had to pay the water.
at our newest place we get the reading sent to us but no bill.
it seems astho they are going along the path of making tenants pay for water usage unless stated.
you will find that most states have the same laws in regards to water.
i know in NSW..The minimum criteria for passing on water usage charges is:
the rental premises must be individually metered (or water is delivered by vehicle, such as those with water tanks on rural properties) and
the charges must not exceed the amount billed for water usage by the water supplier and
the rental premises must meet required ‘water efficiency’ standards
its basiclly the same thing
Yeah, the rules were different in qld until recently. I've never been asked to pay for water.
I have no problem with the change, am just spewing about the way it's been dumped on us, with a letter requesting pmt in 14 days. Any changes to the agreement should be done with 2 months notice, according to the RTA.
Why they didn't let us know about the change is beyond me.
Totally understand! I'd be pi$$ed too!!! I wonder why we still don't have to pay? We are in a complex maybe?
Wow, I wish we didn't have to pay for water!! In Melbourne you have to pay for everything! When we signed our lease the agent told us it would be a good idea to take out renters insurance. She said because if a burglar breaks into the house WE would have to pay to fix the window!!!:o
some landlords are lazy. none more so then mine. *rolls eyes*
if you are unsure ring the RTA and ask them
But if the premises aren't water efficient then you aren't liable for the entire bill if I am reading that correctly? So if he hasn't istalled what he is meant to then you need to work out what proportion of the bill is "reasonable".
I aslo think he should have to re-install the insulation - especially if you can demonstrate a clear increase in electricty costs since it has been removed.
from what i understand, they must give you a months notice.
also from the chart, if you have an agreement even if you're a periodic lease, that states, you as the tenant must pay for water, if this isnt mentioned then the lessor ( landlord) must pay.
nai, from what i can understand its just one condition as to where the lessor can pass on full water charges to the tenant.
In NSW it's standard to pay water usage, or excess water usage, but not rates. That I think is across the board for all house rentals (unless your landlord specifically removes it or forgets, like ours often does :D - we rent privately), because once your lease has expired you are still bound by normal rental rules, just don't need to give (or get) the same notice to move out.
I should add, I've always been under the impression that the landlord must pay the bill and you merely reimburse the usage amount the next time you pay rent. The bill they forward to you is not for you to pay - you pay the landlord who's responsible for the bill (hence the reason it's in their name). So the 14 days thing doesn't make sense.
The only exception we've had to paying water usage is when there was a broken outside tap on our property that we did not know about (buried in the garden out the front and amongst all the bushes - we didn't even know it was there!). It ran constantly for months without our knowledge so we refused to pay the excess water bill because the issue was property maintenance. Technically, we could have still been made to pay, but we were prepared to fight and they let it go since we were moving out.
Who on earth do you think should pay for it?:
In NSW the landlord would fix damage to the house itself. Not your possessions, but definitely the house (it would be claimable on their house insurance as far as I know, if they wanted to put in a claim). Not that I've ever been broken into, but I've never had to pay for any damage that wasn't caused by us.
I can't imagine ever expecting the landlord to fix something like a broken window. They shouldn't pay for it it I smashed it with a cricket ball, why would I expect them to pay for it after someone breaks into the house?
Wow. I am realyl quite stunned that so many people think they shouldn't have to pay for their own lives.
ForShelby - I hope you can get a clear answer from your real estate agent! If it wasn't practice for you to pay the bill but now is, they should give you some sort of notice.
As a landlord, if someone broke into my house and burgled my tenants I would expect the damage to the house to come off my landlord's buildings insurance. It seems quite odd that a broken window through burglary would be the tenant's responsibility.
Anyway WRT the water bill, I hope you get it sorted out soon. If you are going to be responsible for the water bill from now on then I would suggest it would be reasonable for you to ask your landlord to install some water saving devices.
In Queensland it has to be listed in the lease agreement that the tenant will pay the water bill. That is one of the conditions of the RTA. If it is not listed in the lease agreement, then you don't have to pay. Other states have different rules, but that is the rule for Qld.
Did you check out that link I sent through earlier in the thread? It had all your rights and obligations about water billing in Queensland and they were explained thoroughly.
Off topic but in regards to the window I would think that is what you have home insurance for "the landlord" that is. The house is to be up kept and as it was when you move in so I would think they would fix it with insurance. But if something of yours gets taken that is why you should always have your own contents insurance.
I agree that we have to be responsible for our own lives and pay your bills etc. But if you haven't had to pay something before it would come as a shock & water hasn't always been something that has been paid. When we first rented it was excess only & we never went over so we never paid it. I guess that's one reason some people choose to rent, they don't have to pay the council rates, water rates & maintenance either. So I can understand your questioning this.
ok. So to recap.. (lol) there is nothing on our lease to state we're responsible for paying water usage (NOT rates). There are no water saving fittings installed. So, even if they were to decide we have to pay for our water usage, then they need to a)install water saving devices, or b)come up with a reasonable agreement of how much they will pay.
How the heck do you come up with a 'reasonable amount' though when you've never paid for this particular utility and have no real idea of what it should cost though?! ARgh.
And i still haven't heard from my lazy R.E agent. She sucks the big one. :rofl: I'll give her until Monday (public holiday tomorrow).
You should pay all the usage costs - you are using the water.
When we rented out our house, I phoned the water company, they split the bill - the water usage went to the tenants and the sewage, etc costs went to the real estate who paid these on our behalf out of our rent. In regards, to a burglar braking the window, this happened to us, we have landlords insurance and it was fixed up by us through our insurance. I certainly wouldn't expect a tenant to fix a broken window, same as if the toilet goes wrong the landlord fixes it, etc.
In regards to water, I class it the same as electricity, gas, etc, it is an expense that needs to be budgeted for and if bills aren't received for it then you should be querying why not.
In Qld, unless stated otherwise, water usage fees should be included as part of the rent. This is what the law states and the landlord should have been aware of this when deciding to have an investment property in Qld. The law can be changed but at the moment, this is how it stands so the OP is not responsible for water costs.:
Forshelby, the RTA says this about a reasonable amount of water ...
Basically, you would have to take into account that the owner has not fitted water saving devices (which is probably why the water usage is so high) so water consumption will be higher. Honestly, it would cost him less in the long run to just install the water saving devices which is why I think the law is set up that way ... to encourage landlords to install them. It is the landlord's responsibility too as it is a capital assest.:
* Reasonable amount of water: The lessor and the tenant should agree upon what is a reasonable amount at the start of the tenancy and include the amount as a
special term in the tenancy agreement. The tenant is liable for any consumption above the agreed amount.
:
She WASN'T, she now WILL be responsible for paying water.
ForShelby asked how to work out what a reasonable amount was, which is what I was answering. The answer is she should be paying for ALL her water usage costs as SHE is using them. Just as nobody else pays electricity or gas bills for her. It is called paying for your own life, something adults need to do.
When we rented without water saving shower heads etc, we bought our own. They cost next to nothing, I can install them and remove them, and when we move out, we simply replace the old showers heads when we leave.
You don't need to wait for the landlord to do all these things, do them yourself!
WRT the broken window, tenants cannot get property insurance on the house they are renting where landlords can. Tenants are only able to obtain contents insurance. That is why landlords are responsible for a broken window, even in a robbery. I think there may be some negotiation about who pays the excess based on the circumstances, but generally, the landlord's insurance is able to cover the broken window.:
Until there is a formal agreement, under law she is still not obligated to pay for water seperately. It is already paid for ... in the cost of rent. She is paying for her own life. She pays rent.:
The law is there for a reason - to protect both parties. Both parties are obligated to know what the law says when they sign an agreement. The landlord is not getting a bum deal because she doesn't pay for water. The landlord should have been aware of the law - it is not hidden, it is really quite accessable. If the landlord wants her to start paying water, fair enough, but he needs to follow the law. The landlord can purchase water saving devices and install them and it is tax deductable. There is also more to making a house water efficient than just installing low flow shower heads.
I think understanding the law and how it works to protect the rights of everyone is part of being an adult as well. Forshelby signed a contract and that contract listed her rights and obligations. She is entitled to refuse to pay a water bill that she is not contractually obligated to pay. That's what the law does. It makes everyone's jobs and roles clear so that it is not really an issue of personal beliefs about right and wrong. It is about what the law says. The law was there for everyone to see when the contract was signed so it is fair. If the landlord was concerned about water costs, it was his job to account for that in rental costs unless he wanted to do the things he needed to do, by law, to have the tenants pay for water separately.
Water is covered in rent? Since when? (Not being rude... just trying to understand this...) Because in VIC and NSW this isn't the case. Rent is to cover the property not utilities unless stated in the lease. If it isn't stated in the lease (and yes I have seen some leases with utilities covered - although the rent is nearly double what you would normally pay) then you are obligated to pay for it. In VIC the water bill doesn't get sent to the property owner but the occupant. Which in this case is the renter.
Just me - THANKYOU. You saved me a lot of typing there.
Limeslice - I am paying for my own life, like an adult. I don't think you're getting my point but that's ok with me! It's hard when the laws differ state to state. Our rent is 420 p.w. Water was always included in this amt, which is why it's so high.
Why are we talking about break and enters anyway? I'm confuzzled.
Rouge - Yes. In QLD, water is only paid for by the tenant if the lease states this, as well as some other criteria having to be met re water efficiency. Just me explained it better than I can. It's confusing, I know!
I know, I was speaking as a landlord myself, we were the landlords renting out our house and we had landlord insurance.:
Yes in QLD water was covered up until recently, and not it isn't but only if the property meets certain regulations. Hope you get it all figured out ForShelby! I hate dealing with REs and landlords.
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I do understand your point. Quite clearly.
And it is the same in WA - the bills are covered by the tenant, but the WATER bill is sent to the OWNER of the property, it is then forwarded to the tenant to be REIMBURSED. It used to be that water was paid by the OWNER.
What I am saying, is that moving forward, as you will now be liable for "a reasonable amount" of the water usage bill, that "a reasonable amount" SHOULD be ALL of the usage. It is nobody else's responsibility to pay for your showers, washing and garden. So when you asked how to come to that "reasonable" amount, I am suggesting to you that there should be no question - it is all your responsibility, regardless of laws and fittings and other BS - you use it, you pay it. I am not sure how in good conscience you could make an argument for the landlord to cover YOUR living expenses.
Whether or not you had to do it in the past is irrelevant.
I don't think you do, hun.
Our rent has been set at a higher rate to cover costs such as these. That's how it's always been done in QLD (in my 8 yrs of renting anyway...). So, it's not like everyone in QLD who rents a property is getting free water. It's just done differently here.... and that's that.
I don't really think it's fair to disregard 'laws and fittings and other BS'. The RTA makes the rules, and we follow them. Personally I think it's a bit messy and would have been happy to agree to reimburse the lessor for water usage rather than pay a higher rate of rent. BUT this is how it's been done, and thought that I could trust a legal contract such as a lease.
I'm not saying I shouldn't be responsible for my own utilities. I'm not expecting the landlord to cover my living expenses. As I've said multiple times, it's part of the rent amt. Also, I'll just repeat: is everyone in QLD who rents getting free water? No. As for being responsible for any consumption in future, actually, I'm not. UNTIL we have an agreement in place stating that this is what's expected, and I've signed it. In conjunction with my agreement, the lessor needs to comply with the water efficiency standards. If he doesn't want to do this, then we won't be paying huge water bills because of his unwillingness to improve his property. As Just Me said, the laws are there to protect both parties.
I also don't think it's irrelevant whether or not I've had to pay water (as a separate bill) in the past. My whole point here was that we were shocked by being slogged an extra bill, with no warning. I think it's unfair to do that to us. I don't think it's unfair to ask us to pay water in addition to our high weekly rent (although my wallet disagrees). But is IS unfair, and unlawful for them to present me with an account and give me 14 days to pay it, no explaination, nothing.
I hope none of that came across as narky, as I've been accused of it in the past. I just don't think you're understanding my point. I am totally happy to cover the cost. What I am NOT happy about is the lack of communication and their expectation that I will just fork out the money without a second thought. The whole point of leases etc are so that everyone knows their rights and obligations. When your contract states that water usage and sewage etc will be paid by the landlord, that's what you expect to happen! And if there's been a change, I expect to be notified in due time. That's all. :)
I don't think I can make it much clearer. I'll shut up now before I offend someone. :hiding:
lol I KNOW you are unhappy with the way it has been done. I GET IT.
I am talking about a moral point of view - you SHOULD WANT to cover all your water usage REGARDLESS of whether or not he has put in a water saving shower head. (Which as I said above, you can buy yourself and DIY) Why would you only do as much as you are required when you could be doing what you SHOULD?
That's all. If you want to do the bare minimum because that is all someone said is required of you, that that is fine too. You just asked the question how do you come to an agreement about the reasonable amount, and IMO, I gave an answer that you should just cover all of it.
The conversation moved on from your initial post of "I'm cut about the way it was done, how rude" to "Right, going forward, how do we deal". The latter is what I answered.
Yes I don't think damage not caused by you should be your responsibility as the tennant. If a storm knocked a branch through the window, it wouldn't be fair to expect the tennant to pay for the repair so how is a burglary any different?:
originally in Qld the water consumption was included in the council rates notice (well BBC ones at least, not 100% sure of GCCC), in the last few years it became a separate bill
you use the water, you pay for the water, simple as that, same as you use the gas/electricity you pay for it
A lot of complexes don't have individual water meters, so the total bill is split equally between the apartments in the complex.:
Youd can still have a shared meter on a house, JIC anyone thinks that it automatically means its seperate.
A gu at work is in this exact situation at the place hes moved in to today.
His LL has a jpint meter with 2 properties adjoining, and tried to say he would just divide it up and make him pay half.
He told the RE no way and the RE said he doesnt have to pay at all unless it can be seperately billed.
If its not in your lease, and youve never had to pay it before, then its tough luck for your LL. Too bad if they have to pay it, they should have thought about that when they were deciding on your contract. The RE has probably made a mistake and the LL is saying they (RE) have to pay for it because it was their error with the contract